Version 8.1 > Song order discrepancy


11/16/2014 7:35:02 AM
Hello all, this is more of a heads up for the dev. team than anything. I was entering some song orders in this morning, it's not something I usually do. I entered a few in via right clicking on the song title, choosing "Song" and then left-clicking "Edit". I then chose "Order" in the tabs and entered the order. After 3 songs, I noticed that there was a short cut to it in the initial right click menu, titled "Verse Order." So I entered my last 2 songs in that way. What I found is that if you enter the order one way, it does not show up in the other. So, If I were to right click and go into the Song Properties window and edit the song order, those changes would not be reflected in the more basic "Verse Order" window. The opposite scenario also holds true to this functionality. Not a huge deal but nonetheless a problem, and I can't tell you if it's been doing this on prior versions since I haven't done this in a while.

Hopefully that made sense...

Running v8.1 with the 11/11/14 update.


11/16/2014 8:23:04 AM

If I understand what you're saying, that is normal behavoir. If you change order from "Edit Song", you have to add the song to the program after the changes. A song that is in the program is stored just as it was when you added it. If you change the order using the "Verse Order" process, it only applies to that instance in the program unless you check the "Save this as the new typical order" box.

11/16/2014 1:54:24 PM
unless you check the "Save this as the new typical order" box.

If this is done in one instance in the program, will it change the other instances? Just wondering.

11/19/2014 11:21:02 AM

Gary is correct - this is expected behavior.  These two paths are for different functions.  While they do both concern verse order, the right-click > Song > Edit >Order path will change the song file itself and permanently change the default order while the right-click >Verse Order path will only change the order in the program.  
FYI - if you do make the change in the song file after it is already in the program you can simply right-click the song and select Reload Song to get the updated order in the program. 

11/23/2014 6:35:16 AM
Interesting. Thanks to all for clarifying. Shows how much I use that feature!

11/28/2014 11:02:19 AM
Posted By Dick Akins on 16 Nov 2014 01:54 PM

unless you check the "Save this as the new typical order" box.

If this is done in one instance in the program, will it change the other instances? Just wondering.

No, Sir. It only changes the one instance and the permanent song order. If you have the song in the program twice, you will have to right-click>verse order>Use Typical

11/29/2014 7:41:49 PM
This is actually a key feature of SSP over a competing product that I have used.

In SSP, there is a verse order associated with the song in the song database. When the song is added to a program, the program gets its own copy of the verse order. So now there are 2 verse orders, one in the DB and one in the program, both can still be edited and they don't need to be the same. If they are different, when the song is accessed through the program panel, the copy in the program panel is used.

How is this useful? Often, at the end of the service, our worship pastor will do a shortened version of one of the songs sung earlier in the service, as the closing song. Normally, the first time the song is sung, we use the verse order already stored in the DB (it is copied to the program with no changes) but when adding the song to the program a second time, I can change the verse order when adding it to the program, retaining the original verse order in the DB and in it's earlier reference in the program.

Doing something like this with a competing product I used was possible, but ugly. That program only allowed one verse order per song. So to have it in a program twice, with two different verse orders, I had to make a second copy of the song in the DB and give the copy a different verse order. Needless to say: my song database got polluted with 2 copies of many songs.

The notion of having multiple copies of of various properties (e.g., verse order, background image) and a scheme of inheriting properties from a higher level, unless you override them closer to where they are referenced, is actually very elegant and very powerful; it does take a little getting used to though. I suspect, however, that the concept is a very familiar one to most people, like my self, with a programming background if they have used object oriented programming languages and are familiar with polymorphism.

Another example of where this inheritance is very useful.  I try to setup my songs, in the DB, with backgrounds that are very appropriate for the song.  But occasionally, like at Christmas time, I want to use a different background without disturbing my default setup that is stored in the DB.   For tomorrow's program, I will likely change a few backgrounds by right clicking the song in the Program listing and changing it there rather than changing it by editing the song.  This way, the song will have a Christmas background tomorrow and I won't have to undo it in January.

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